Kengo Kuma

Kengo Kuma is a mercurial architect, who works with natural forms and historical structures with an avant-garde sensibility. Tim talks to the usually taciturn Japanese maestro about the horrors of Metabolism, what he calls the philosophy of the detail and the affinities between Portugal and Japan.

 

Podcast transcript

Vladimir Djurovic: This garden was an ornamental garden for the castle here, all grass and some few trees and some very exotic trees that we had to sacrifice in order to amplify the native vegetation and make it a wildlife refuge and it was quite open. Now when we walk around there is so much to discover. It’s layered, we’ve carved out many different rooms of different sizes. 

Tim Abrahams:  Hello, Superurbanists. Thank you for all your messages about the last podcast with Edwin Heathcote’s lovely stuff. I received one comment about the sound on this podcast and it’s pertinent from having done all kinds of media. I would say that there’s something vital to the connection you get when you are in the same place as another person. People open up more, people reflect more. I think it was Isi Metzstein who said when someone pointed out there was a leak in his buildings, he said the problem with architecture is it’s built outdoors and that’s one of the issues with the podcast about architecture. When I’m speaking to people they’re often outdoors, this means the sound is not always studio quality. If you want that you know where to find it. If you want to hear the sound of someone in the place, they designed then here’s where we are. 

This week I’m talking to Kengo Kuma about his extension of the Central Arte Moderna at the Gulbenkian in Lisbon and when you listen to it you realize why the comment is pertinent. He talks quietly but very specifically about the project. He opens up radically about his design philosophy. I’ve talked to him before and he’s never spoken this clearly about it. We started with Vladimir Djurovic’s description of the new garden. Also important is the role of Rita Topa, a Portuguese partner at Kengo Kuma’s who Kuma-san describes as a bridge and who you’ll hear from later. Look, it’s not easy to catch every word. Some of it takes place outside and a word about some terminology. Engawa. An engawa is a porch or sunroom that runs around traditional Japanese houses often. Engawa is used here to describe that area which sits between the outside world and the inside world.

 

Kengo Kuma: The Portuguese brought many things to Japan. Some words obrigado, arigatou, The word for thank you in Japan also came from Portugal. And they have, we call it copu for cup and tobacco. And this is the first country that gives the biggest deal for us to Japan. And there’s paintings also. Japanese painting before Portugal became known was very much influenced by China. But there are some golden paintings with some strong silhouettes that came from Portugal. And maybe before they’re coming some basic similarity exists between two countries. They are not big countries, they are small countries, the life there is always with oceans, the fishermen culture is strong.

Both countries have mountains and valleys. And both countries are not a big land but living with nature, enjoying the life in nature, I feel that kind of similarity exists. And I personally feel strong sympathy for the Portuguese. And also, we have Rita for long years, and Rita also has been living in Japan for 17 years. And she is kind of bridge, already she’s been working as a british We proposed the Japanese idea to the competition without any hesitation. Because we had common basis we believed and our own idea, I think it’s a big challenge. Because normally the competition with a museum, they propose some volume for the exhibition.

But our engawa proposal. The protagonist is the Engaw and the Engawa has no interior space, no volume. The  engawa just proposes the relationship without any volume. Most of the museums, they think the volume makes money. Volume is used for exhibition. Without volume, they can’t earn money. Maybe that’s a rule of the contemporary museum but our idea is totally different. Relationships can create something; telationships with the garden can create something. That is the basis of our proposal and then I think we are brave at that time. Luckily our proposals were chosen and, good client we have. 

The Gulbenkian is a museum in Europe. But at the same time when I visited the site, I felt the garden of the Gulbenkian is the protagonist of the museum. And that kind of feeling is exceptional in Europe. In Japan, the relationship between gardens and the building is always like that. The garden is always a protagonist. We designed the Nezu Museum in Tokyo. At the Nezu Museum people love the gardens, the building is not bad. 

But the people enjoy walking in the gardens. And there are small tea houses in the gardens, the people love it very much. And the cafe is a favorite place. And I feel the same relationship at the Gulbenkian. And it’s a character of the Gulbenkian. I want to enhance this character by our proposal. It is very unique in Europe, I think. 

Some avant garde spirit is necessary to combine tradition and contemporary as a program. And without the avant garde spirit, the traditional idea is some kind of nostalgic idea. We don’t like such kind of nostalgia. A Japanese garden in itself cannot create anything. A spirit can combine two opposite directions together. And the roof is a symbol of that kind of avant garde spirit. Practically, to design the roof, it is done by parametric design, but implemented by Portuguese craftsmanship. A big tile [has been used] that is 90 centimeters. Ninety centimeters, big white tile with special white textures. It’s amazing. Maybe other countries cannot create that kind of beautiful tiles. And we fix the tile by the overlapping joint system.

Usually the tile is touching like that [hands touch directly], but we do the overlapping. We often call it a fish skin joint, like fish skin. It is very flexible. The fish moves, but the fish skin is following the dynamic movement of the fish. This white tile has a fish skin joint, and that allows the preciseness of craftsmanship for that. 

The industrial products are always the same size, the same color, and flatness. Off–white tile may be some difference, and also some bending. There is a randomness in craftsmanship. It’s the basis of the natural effect. The industrial product cannot create that kind of natural effect. By the fish skin joint, we can achieve that kind of feeling. But because this design method is very universal, the material is very local. And also the ceramic is a kind of symbol of friendship between Japan and Portugal. Both countries love ceramics, very much, still, the main genre of art in Japan and the same for the Portuguese. To use ceramic is very important to show our friendship.

In the meeting, we are often using the word from onomatopoeia. Some relations between the other can be explained only by onomatopoeia. In this case, the fish scale is used, and the edge of the fish scale is tsung-tsung. I want to show the thinness of ceramic tiles. Usually, the ceramic tile was used for cladding on concrete. And then the cladding on the concrete cannot show the thinness because it’s just a texture of concrete. But the ceramic tile is not textured. This tile is a material itself. I want to show ceramic tile is independent. 

The columns are very similar to the leaves of pine. The leaves of pine are a tree shape, and in the forest, the leaves of pine are a natural solution. Also, the engineers said the shape is a very functional solution to support the roof. We have two types of columns, the shorter ones, and the longer ones. And the shorter ones are solid steel. And to have this sharp edge of solid steel is not easy for a factory. Maybe only Portuguese craftsmanship can realize some kind of sharp-edged columns with solid steel. And the longer ones is like a pine leaves.

Rita Topa:  If we had a traditional column, they might even be more elegant, but they feel like a building. And from the beginning, we wanted to make something more like a garden or something that belongs to the garden. So, when we made the V columns, we were challenging the engineers to come with these elegant V columns. So for us, it was very important that we would not do like this typical rounded concrete column, to make that this belongs to the garden. 

Tim Abrahams:  Yes, there’s a lot of other work that you’ve done to the existing building. I believe, having spoken to people who are involved in the competition, that one of the reasons why you won is because you found space underneath the building for the galleries. What were the priorities for you? What did that do to the building? And what relationship does that have to the engawa? 

Kengo Kuma: We don’t want to disturb the garden and an underground exhibition space weill it doesn’t disturb the garden at all. And also, at the same time, to bring natural light to the basement, to connect, this is what I hope is the theme of our design. Connect the past and future, connect nature and artifact. It’s an underground space which is connected with heaven. We carefully designed the section of the building. We tried to design, carefully, every space. There’s a circulation and bringing nature to every spaces. It’s a lot of work, actually. Some brave ideas and a lot of work should go together, I always say. 

Tim Abrahams:  That relationship between the heavens and the earth is a little different to the rest of the museum, but you’ve decided to make a change.

Kengo Kuma: A small slit is very important in Japanese design. There is a philosophy called mah philosophy. [inaudible] means a small gap. That kind of small gap gives life to every spaces. If the spaces are touching, we can bring nature to each spaces. And then, in design, adding music and a poem as well, the small spaces is important. As in the poem, between word to word, there are some small spaces. We inserted it an d it gives life to words.

By this technique, poem can show the whole world. And also, in the painting, between the colors, there is a gap, a small gap. The slit in the museum, we designed many slits in the museum, is giving life to each space. So when I visited this building, I felt the garden was magical. I felt that many secrets are hidden in the garden. It was very attractive, but at the same time, we tried to find the secret of this magical garden to raise it to the next level, next steps.

And I thought, working with the Gulbenkian, you can do something with this magical garden. And as adding something, find some hidden rule, so the garden can be more understandable to everybody. And so that is what we tried to do with the garden. And also, the building itself, the 1960s building has brutalism textures – concrete. Everything is matching the magical garden. But if we can connect the existing building by our inner world, it is a brutalism, concrete can have a new life. And then, maybe, the brutalism is more merging into the garden. 

The history of Portugal city is not made by one single idea. It is different from Paris.

Paris also has Hausmann strong ideas controlled everything. But the Portuguese diversity is the basis of a city. And this new Gulbenkian is showing the new diversity. The 1960s, the engawa ideas, the ceramic tiles. I think it’s very Portuguese. And then some new memory can be created by this new mix.

Portuguese culture is very generous to this kind of mix. The collection of Gulbenkians is very wide. It needs simplicity to match every kind of art. And then we provide some natural light with some windows. And it is a wide path, a wide view. Sometimes it’s connected with nature. That is what we try to achieve. The basic concept of the material the concrete to softer material. There used to be concrete walls. What we add is a mesh, metal mesh. It’s a white metal mesh.

There’s some lighting effect. And there’s a stone with some natural textures that we applied to get a softness on concrete walls. And it adds softness and connection with nature so they can build a very warm feeling to the building. And we believe the museum in the 21st century should be a kind of living room for the community. 

In the old days, the Gulbenkian was loved by the community. But we tried to add maybe softness or comfortableness to the museum. And maybe people will love the Gulbenkian more than before. And also, the garden is connected with the community. So, we open up the south wall also for the community. And then a beloved space, beloved museum, it’s getting more intimate with the space and intimate gardens. 

Rita Topa: So Gulbenkian is one of the biggest contemporary collections of Portuguese artists and very diverse. That was when we started the project, we went to the reserves to see. So, it was amazing to see what they have. And the museum itself, we try to give the maximum diversity of spaces.  So, to be the most flexible as possible. But we also challenge, and we know we challenged the curators because the existing building already has this relation with the garden. 

So, we have a new gallery that we also create this relationship with engawa, that’s windows. We know this is challenging for them and we hope that they will be also dialoguing with us to create something new. And we gave also the new gallery downstairs that is totally a white box. So, we wanted to give more area to the garden so people could enjoy and even have a new way to enjoy the garden.

And so, the solution came from the gap for the back of the existing building and the new garden. So, this whole area was like a back of house with some administration buildings. And we’re like, what if we start subtracting? And by subtracting, we were creating new space. And so, we subtract. We started to remove and see what was superfluous in the buildings. We varied the gallery, and then we needed to have this transition language that became the engawa. So, between the garden and the building. Actually, so what you see here is the entire process. The exhibition ends and then engawa on the top. We remove some of the existing corridors and we make them wider. And we’ve created these vertical connections that go down. And then you will have this continuous circulation. So same as the garden that is the loop, the building also, you can create different loops. So, it’s this fluidity. 

We’re also learning the lessons from the existing building, the connections to nature. And so, the lower gallery, you open and you can see this continuation from inside to outside. And so, all the spaces that we gave to the museum, they all have a natural connection to light, even the ones underground. 

Kengo Kuma: I want the Gulbenkian to start a new relationship between art and the city. Gulbenkian is one of the most unique museums in the world because already people love this mysterious museum. The museum will be changing, but at the same time, the city itself can be changing. 

Tim Abrahams:  And how do you think Lisbon is changing? 

Kengo Kuma: Lisbon is one of the most popular cities in the world. The climate is beautiful, the food is beautiful, and everything is not so pricey. But it’s a new era for Lisbon. 

Tim Abrahams:  We were speaking over lunch about Alvaro Siza’s work, and we spoke a little bit about your love of it. When was the first time you came across Siza’s work? 

Kengo Kuma: Siza’s work is maybe in the 90s or, the beginning of the 1990s. I came to Porto and I was impressed by the craftsmanship of  Siza’s work. And by the photographs, I couldn’t find the quality of craftsmanship from Cesar’s work. But the reality is shocking for me. I found craftsmanship with real material. The use of whiteboard is not simple whiteboard. It is white material, although that experience shocked me. 

Tim Abrahams: You spoke when we were talking earlier about the philosophy of detail, and you used that in relationship to Cesar’s work. What did you mean by that? 

Kengo Kuma: Yes, Cesar’s philosophy is not based on logic. It is based on the material and detail. I like that kind of philosophy. He doesn’t speak a lot. Through the detail and materiality, he showed his idea, and his idea is coming to a deep part of me. I really respect that kind of attitude. Some speak a lot, whereas the reality is very poor but he doesn’t speak a lot. But the reality is amazing.

Tim Abrahams:  You’ve visited his works. Is there a particular work of his that spoke to you? 

Kengo Kuma: The pool, maybe most people love his pool. It is actually shown on the landscape, totally merging. I learned many things from this. But if I should pick up one project, its his social housing. It’s very simple planning, but it changed the definition of social housing. Maybe cost-wise it is totally inexpensive, but every detail, the plant box, the corridors, the doors, it’s amazing. I feel a new type of humbleness from that social housing. It’s to realize that kind of quality social housing.

Tim Abrahams:  One of your many next buildings is the Portuguese Pavilion for the Expo 2025 in Osaka. You mentioned when we discussed your experience of going to the first Expo in Osaka in 1970. 

Kengo Kuma: ’70.

Tim Abrahams:  Yeah. Perhaps you could tell me why that was such an important moment for you? 

Kengo Kuma: Yes. In the 1970s, I was at the age of 16. I was a high school student. I already began to read a shelf of books about Metabolism. It was very stimulating and I really became a big fan of Metabolism. But when I visited Osaka to see Kisho Kurokawa’s building, it was very disappointing. Kisho Kurokawa’s writing is about life itself. The architecture should change from industrialization to the biosystem. He’s a pioneer of that kind of thinking but what he designed is a metal monster. It is a capsule, but it’s a metal monster itself. After that experience, I began to think I should go to the opposite direction from Kisho Kurokawa and the opposite direction from Kenzo Tange. Before, Kenzo Tange and his disciple Kisho Kurokawa were my two big heroes but after that, I started a new trip to find another goal. And the Expo is very important for the young generation. The Expo can change the direction of life for the young generation.

And maybe the Osaka Expo 2025, so next year’s Expo should be like that. By designing Portuguese pavilions, I want to show something new for the young generation. 

Tim Abrahams:  Perhaps you could just describe the building.

Kengo Kuma: I want to show some kind of similarity between Japan and Portugal. The two cultures are very much related to the ocean. And the ocean is the basis of their culture and economy. By designing the Portuguese pavilion, I want to show the mutual sympathy of the two. 

Tim Abrahams: The mutual sympathy of the two countries. And what do you think? You must have some impression of what’s happening with Osaka in 2025. If the 1970s was about exploring the reality of metabolism, good and bad, what do you think will be the defining characteristic of this one? 

Kengo Kuma: Yes, in the 1970s, in Japan was in the middle of economic expansion and the population was growing very fast. People were dreaming. The future is very bright. New technology can make everything happen. But the disappointment, as I began to think, that kind of dream is just not reality. And I started a new trip to other directions. The Expo in 2025, it is the middle of disappointment. Everybody is disappointed with the future of the world. It’s totally opposite of the mood of the 1970s. Very optimistic 1970s, very pessimistic in 2025. But we have tried to show the small dream in that kind of pessimism, it is a big challenge. 

Tim Abrahams:  Yeah, I’m getting big challenge vibes. One of the interesting things about this space is it’s not for anything. It doesn’t have a program. Its potential is open. What could this be used for? 

Kengo Kuma: In Japanese engawa, engawa is also no function, no program. But it’s a sitting and relaxing place. As a boy, I was always reading the books in engawa. Even in winters, I enjoy the refreshing air in engawa space. And maybe this engawa space can provide that experience to every generation in this moment. The kids maybe, can be running in the engawa space. And also, the elderly will come to the engawa to sleep.

To have this function sometimes kills the space. That is to have this kind of flexibility it means big freedom as a daily activity. And as a museum, you need that kind of free space. Also walking in the museum is sometimes stressful. “Ah the art is sending me many messages.” But here, as a no art, as a no message from the art, we can do anything. 

Tim Abrahams: Kenga Kuma, ladies and gentlemen. One of the key words listening back briefly is, protagonist. There’s a quality to Kuma’s work, in which architecture is a participant in the theater, urban theater, rural theater, whatever, theater. It’s a series of players performing. And I know that Kuma has traveled a long way architecturally since his youthful infatuation from the Metabolist movement in Japan, which is a whole story in itself. Buildings that move, buildings that adapt, buildings that can be built out, put forward by Kisho Kurokawa and Kenzo Tange. But there is a sense of his architecture, by which I mean Kuma’s is dynamic. Does it move? It’s not superstructure and it’s not adaptive or robotic in any way as the Metabolists imagine. But Kuma’s work is part of a drama.

There is a stationary dynamic to it if that’s not too contradictory a phrase. The work at the Gulbenkian is not without its issues, some of them similar to those of the V&A in Dundee, which Kuma also designed. It is, though, a surprising original experience.

And I look forward to writing about it in the Architectural Record while I’m a contributing editor. 

Thank you in the meantime to Kengo Kuma and Rita Topa, Kengo Kuma & Associates. Also, thank you to Scott & Co, who took me there. Thank you to the Gulbenkian themselves. Thank you also to Vladimir Djurovic, the landscape architect who has adapted and extended the amazing gardens of the Gulbenkian, which Kuma’s work now addresses. Thanks also to my friend Andrew Tavares for keeping it real.

 Look forward to talking to you in a couple of weeks. Got some amazing things lined up. As ever, it’s always a moving feast with Superurbanism. Do keep the feedback rolling in. Always keen to hear what you think. Thanks very much. Bye.

 

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